Continuing the Vitamin C discussion

Hi Folks,

I am still mulling over the information you posted on this issue at the Yahoo group, Dave.

I did do some experimentation before I settled on the Ester C. And it is very expensive. I tried Natural Factors C but it really didn't have any positive effect so I went back to the Ester C. Not that I am 100% convinced it is the best possible choice for me. My bewildered question is: how do you or others hit on one that works? Here is a link: 

http://www.canadianvitaminshop.com/cgi-bin/TheVitaminShop.storefront/45a9a39e0655ed7a27404200c14c0697/UserTemplate/45?Type=1&CatNum=1044

to my vitamin store. There are 3 pages of C's, all shapes and forms. Other than buying a whole bunch and working through them, how can one make an informed choice? I would really appreciate advice on the subject. 

This is a good question. The first thing I'll do is move my post from the other group over to here. Then I'll add as much additional info as I can in another post. So here is my original post on -Vitamin C.

- -

The main content of this post is from the Vitamin C Foundation (run
by Owen R Fonorow). However, I'll preface that with my own story.

I have experimented extensively with Ester C and I have found that it
doesn't work as well as regular ascorbic acid for me. I repeated my
experiements many times over many years and every time Ester C was
less effective for me than ascorbic acid. I performed these personal
experiments prior to reading any published research on the problems
with Ester C (see below). In fact, I had only read positive reports
on Ester C at the time, and I expected Ester C to work better than
regular ascorbate. That's why I repeated the experiments so many
times -- I kept thinking that I had done something wrong during my
personal testing to cause the Ester C to not work well. I switched
brands, checked for confounding factors, etc. Finally, after many,
many tests over about a decade, I was forced to conclude that Ester C
didn't work well for me. I thought I might be an anomoly. However,
after the fact, I read research pointing out the problems with Ester
C and everything made sense.

Generally, I am staunchly in favor of completely natural nutrients in
their complex form and I avoid isolated single nutrients. However, my
experience with Vitamin C has been somewhat different. It is the one
nutrient that seems to work well for me over the long term even in an
isolated synthetic form. From an evolutionary perspective, this makes
sense. Most species synthesize their own ascorbic acid in high
amounts starting from glucose (blood sugar). We may have biochemical
pathways for efficiently processing isolated ascorbic acid. (That is
certainly not the case for other nutrients. The carotenoids and
Vitamin E are examples that have made the headlines recently. See
http://www.acgraceco.com/form.htm for example.)

-------------

Why the Vitamin C Foundation Does Not Recommend Ester-C®

By Owen R Fonorow

It is true that studies have shown so-called Ester-C® will enter
cells faster and therefore less of it is required to ward off scurvy
in guinea pigs. However, we are wary of any form of vitamin C that
does not match what animals make "naturally" in their livers or
kidneys. We agree with Linus Pauling that the true and best form of
vitamin C is L-ascorbic Acid (C6H8O6).

Patrick Holford, formerly of the British Institute of Optimum
Nutrition (ION) tells us how animals make vitamin C, ascorbic acid:

"Vitamin C is not a necessary component of diet, at least for all
mammals with the exception of guinea pigs, fruit eating bats, the red
vented bulbul bird and higher-order primates - which includes us. All
other species make their vitamin C by converting glucuronic acid
derived from glucose into ascorbic acid (C6H8O6). At least three
enzymes are required to make this conversion. One of these liver
enzymes, L-gulonolactone oxidase, or part of the enzyme system, is
missing in primates. Irwin Stone proposed, in 1965, that a negative
mutation may have occurred in these species so as to lose the ability
to produce vitamin C. In primates this is thought to have occurred in
the region of 25 million years ago. "

According to Robert Cathcart,MD, the physician with vast experience
with high dose vitamin C protocols, mineral ascorbates are generally
not as effective therapeutically as ascorbic acid:

"...it was not entirely clear that the dramatic effects are always
with ascorbic acid orally and sodium ascorbate intravenously. I have
not been able to achieve the ascorbate effect with mineral ascorbates
orally. Mineral ascorbates are fine forms of vitamin C but when you
are really sick, the mitochondria are failing in their refueling of
the free radical scavengers with electrons. The ascorbic acid carries
2 extra electrons per molecule where the mineral ascorbates seem to
carry only one (plus per molecule the mineral ascorbates are heavier
due to the mineral weighing more than the hydrogen the mineral
replaces). So the mineral ascorbates are not potent enough to
accomplish the ascorbate effect. There may be other reasons that we
do not appreciate additionally." Robert Cathcart, III, MD
Another of our concerns is balancing the exaggerated hype against the
following down-side about the Ester-C manufacturing process, as
expressed by people experienced in the field, who wish to remain
annonymous:


"Note: it's my understanding that Roche at al. have long been less
than thrilled with Inter-Cal's method for making Ester-C(r). After
all, when C is heated to high temps under pressure, as their patent
specifies, dehydroascorbate (DHA), to the tune of about 10% by weight
of finished product, is the consequence. Of course, their claim to
fame was that other organic acids were formed by their process, for
which they claimed proprietary effects. But, there's no hiding the
DHA content -- for which they sort of disingenuously claim biological
value, based on the fact, I guess, that DHA can be reduced to to work
again as an antioxidant." E. F.

It is true that Ester-C reaches cells and enters them faster. An
anonymous informant with ties to the U.S. biological weapons program
told us:


"Ester-C is not an ester. My late friend was a former scientist
involved in biochemical warfare with a high security clearance. He
dissected the patent and had several meetings with Dr. Virlangieri,
one of the researchers that touted its virtues. My friend favored
good old ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate. He told me quite
literally that ester-C was "two pounds of 'dung' in a one pound bag."
He was an avid Pauling devote and was concerned that under certain
conditions, ester-C was dangerous and contraindicated. The prevailing
propaganda changed from its being an ester to its providing threonine
metabolites. He told me that Pauling would have laughed the ester-C
boys back to chemistry class! " R. L.

That is to say there might not be serious conditions where Ester-C is
indicated. We have seen an impressive argument for Ester-C in an anti-
cancer patent based on the work of former Pauling associate R.
Jariwalla. However, since Ester-C also seems to trap vitamin C, and
perhaps other toxins in cells, using Ester-C with Chemotherapy is
problematic.

I am generally a bit hesitant to recommend most nutritional supplements. I feel more comfortable recommending super foods (ghee, honey, garlic, chlorophyll, aloe vera juice, kale, etc.) and herbs. However, sometimes vitamins and minerals can be helpful when used correctly. I think Vitamin C is one nutrient that deserves special attention by anyone with vision problems.

My advice to anyone with vision problems (or other health problems) is to find the least expensive pure ascorbic acid you can find and take a lot of it (after you educate yourself and possibly check with a doctor who understands Vitamin C). I think of my Vitamin C supplement as simply a source of ascorbic acid. I try to get my bioflavonoids from foods and herbs.

I have not found the "Vitamin C complex" products (those with flavanones, hesperidin, rutin, quercetin, etc.) to be very satisfactory, and most experts seem to echo this opinion. It's not that those other factors are unimportant. Not at all. It's just that those bioflavonoids and such are nutrients we can probably obtain in sufficient quantities from foods or herbs. And I don't think the supplements can provide the full spectrum of "Vitamin C complex" nutrients that foods or herbs such as Amla provide. I look for pure ascorbic acid when I look for a Vitamin C supplement. (For anyone who is curious, I also take Amla in the bulk organic powder form found here - I don't hold much hope of finding a Vitamin C product that could match my Ayurvedic herbs in terms of the "complex" factors.)

Most experts advise using pure ascorbic acid powder. You can find it on the Internet with a search like this. NOW makes a Vitamin C product that I here good things about. I've used many of the NOW products with good results in the past.

However, even though most "serious" Vitamin C consumers use powder, I go with tablets. Ascorbic acid powder can damage your tooth enamel if you don't rinse your mouth after drinking it. (Of course lemon juice can do the same thing, but that's another story.) Anyway, I prefer the simplicity of Vitamin C tablets.

Currently I purchase my Vitamin C at Costco here in the USA. Here is the link: http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10015954&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&s=1 

As you can see, the tablets have binders and fillers that the pure powder does not have. One day I may go back to the pure powder if I know I can discipline myself to rinse my mouth every single time I drink it.

Most of the time the tablets cost a bit more. However, Costco currently sells a bottle of 500 one gram tablets for $US 9.99. That's cheaper than the pure powder in many cases.

I have two widely different criteria I apply to nutritional supplements. I apply one criteria to Vitamin C and another completely different criteria to everything else. 

Vitamin C is the only supplement I take where I consider price an important factor. I usually look for quality first. Most of my supplements are Ayurvedic herbs, and there is no such thing as a commodity herb in my opinion. However, most Vitamin C experts consider ascorbic acid to be a commodity product. It is fairly easy to find pure ascorbic acid and then make a selection based on price.  I look for the United States Pharmacopeia (USP) seal of purity (link: http://www.usp.org/aboutUSP/). It also pays to look at the other ingredients in the product if you choose to use tablets.

I recently spoke with Dr. Robert Cathcart III on the telephone. He is one of the world's top authorities on Vitamin C. I believe he is in agreement with the info above on Vitamin C. Furthermore, he does not recommend any of the mineral ascorbates orally. He has had the best clinical results with plain ascorbic acid. And like all the other real Vitamin C experts I know, he is against Ester-C.

<rant> Find a pure ascorbic acid tablet or powder from a company you trust to sell pure nutritional products. Take a lot of it. Don't take Ester-C. Don't take fancy mineral ascorbates. Don't take AscorbAde or Lypo-Spheric Vitamin C. Don't take expensive Vitamin C products with a bunch of extra ingredients. Do eat the best diet you can and try to get as many of your nutrients as possible from plant sources (foods and herbs & spices). </rant>

 

 

This guy is well into Vit C too

<>http://www.hullcontactlensclinic.co.uk/cardior.htm

Elizabeth:

This guy is well into Vit C too: http://www.hullcontactlensclinic.co.uk/cardior.htm

Wow! This doctor is someone I would love to communicate with! That's very exciting info! Thanks for the link.

Do you know of any other glaucoma specialists who have done research with Vitamin C?

 

Boy, do I feel like I am getting really useful answers here! All of what you say makes excellent sense to me. It will take me some time to digest all of it and the links.

I agree with you, Dave, that supplements are far too simplistic to echo natural foodstuffs. We ate a huge kale salad every day for 6 weeks in Nov. and early Dec. to beat the snow to it. I never thought about supplements during that period. I dried large quantities of kale and parsley in the fall. I take a handful of each and put them into a litre sealer, pour boiling water over them, add a tea cozy, steep 10 min. and drink the liquid over a couple of hours. I do this every 2nd day and on the alternates I do the same with dried nettles. Not as good as fresh but way better than most supplements.

BTW, a few years back I heard about an Italian study on the effects of Vit. C and glaucoma. Sorry, I can't remember more about it.

<><>Getting all we need from food stuffs is the ideal - unfortunately much is grown in impoverished soils.

I like the tea recipes, thanks. 

 

 

Hi Dave, in all seriousness, I've studied out the various components of AscorbAde at different times in the past and just found them all combined in this package today.  Why do you say not to take it?  It sounds exactly like something I've been searching for for a long, long time.  I actually found your post via google while digging around for AscorbAde reviews in hopes to hear some pro/con arguments, but I am not really finding anything convincingly contrary to their product.

Again, just going on what I've studied and seen and rather than taking all sorts of various pills this seems like the best mix.  I was also intrigued by your mention of the Indian Amla fruit.  I would like to know more about it, however again, I am going to be purchasing some AscorbAde unless I find some very convincing arguments against it's ingredients (or if it is falsely advertising itself and does not really contain what it says...).

Hope to hear something back soon!
 

Hi nilio,

If you try out Ascorbade, let me know how you like it. I haven't used it. I had a conversation with Dr. Robert Cathcart a few months back. He is widely quoted on the Vitamin C Foundation forums (and elsewhere). Dr. Cathcart is the one that told me he was not in favor of the supplements being sold by Owen Fonorow. I hope I can say that in a public forum - I don't think he was telling me anything he wouldn't have told anyone who asked. Dr. Cathcart indicated that he had distanced himself from the Vitamin C Foundation once it started selling these nutritional supplements. What I understood was that Dr. Cathcart wasn't impressed with the formulas and/or the claims made for them. I'm just passing the info along. I don't know Owen Fonorow. But I do appreciate all the knowledge available on the Vitamin C Foundation forums, so I don't want to put myself at odds with Owen. I also don't want to start a feud between these two great individuals.

That said, I would not personally take Ascorbade. One simple reason is that I don't like the vitamin E in it. I can be better vitamin E separately. I can also get better B vitamins separately. I am very skeptical of arginine pyroglutamate. In fact, I would not currently take any product with arginine pyroglutamate in it. I can think of a dozen herbs that provide the claimed benefits of arginine pyroglutamate. These herbs are generally better researched and have a much longer tradition of safe usage. We take supplements for our health. Why risk adverse effects from unproven nutraceuticals when traditional herbal combinations are safer and probably more effective?

Ascorbade does not have exactly the premium ingredients I personally want, and it includes ingredients I do not feel good about taking. If it fits your requirements 100%, that's a different story. 

Let me know what you decide.

Dave 

 

Thank you very much Dave for your input.  Do you know of any combination cocktails that are similar to AscorbAde that are composed of higher quality items or herbs?  I really like the idea of an "all in one" solution rather than taking various items.

Also, I would be curious as to your take on the following:

http://doctoryourself.com/dystrophy.html

I am trying desperately to help a friend with muscular dystrophy that has no hope from help from the doctors (he's 44 and consigned to a nursing home living off of government assistance that will not provide nutritional therapy).  If I could find a combinative cocktail similar to AscorbAde that could be "beefed up" to meet the MD needs outlined in this website then I'd love to try to help him or start a trial with some company since I financially can't really afford the cost of such supposed high needs for someone suffering from muscular dystrophy.
 

nilio,

Is the Ascorbade for you or your friend with MD? My prior comments about preferring traditional herbal combinations over engineered nutraceuticals applies to people in generally good health. For someone with MD, I would consider everything. And if my resources were limited I would not hesitate to use Ascorbade as a trial in a situation like you described for your friend.

I can also highly recommend Ayurvedic treatment for you to consider. You will find it can be much less costly than the typical western nutritional approach of using dozens or hundreds of expensive nutrients. In Ayurveda, the treatment will typically consist of a few well-selected herbal combinations. You'll need to consult with an Ayurvedic physician. If you tell me where you are located, I might be able to recommend a reasonably priced Ayurvedic physician.

The link you provided is interesting. I can't offer a detailed reply, but I am generally in agreement with the info at that site.

If I had MD, I would consider moving to South America (or one of several other places known to have modern health care at low cost). I try to go to South America every year for my "executive physical." Last year I had a full day of tests, including a treadmill stress test, a consultation with a cardiologist, complete blood & urine work, and much much more. The tests would have cost me many thousands of dollars here. In South America my total cost was less than $400 and I was treated incredibly well. I felt the medical equipment was just as modern as what I see here -- and often it was newer. The doctors were almost all trained in the US too. Anyway, that's just "food for thought."

Best wishes to you and your friend.  

 

Thanks, very interesting.  The AscorbAde is for both myself and my friend.  I am desperate to try to find something to help my friend as the medical community is so complacent and unwilling to try anything new with him (especially since he has zero income and is being supported by the state).

In terms of myself, I am in southern Ohio in the U.S.A.  I am also fluent in Spanish, so that South American idea is intriguing.  I've pondered on going down to Mexico to some extended family doctors there that are supposedly top notch in the north to do essentially what you've suggested, however I've been rather nervous.

I've really wanted to see about getting with someone that could analyze my body, nutrient intake and output and see exactly what I'm needing.  I just have no idea if such services exist and since I am without health insurance right now I'm terrified to find out if I have a preexisting condition as when I do apply for insurance I would not be covered in those areas. 

Please do advise as to anyone that may be able to help in this region or if you have any other suggestions.

Thanks! 

nilio - a good Ayurvedic physician will basically "analyze my body, nutrient intake and output and see exactly what I'm needing." However, they do it via alternative means (pulse diagnosis, etc.) and the diagnosis should have zero impact on any health insurance issues (because health insurance companies do not recognize things like an imbalance of the doshas to be a medical condition - besides everyone has some imbalance). Unfortunately, I don't know who to recommend in your area. You could try calling Dr. Aparna Bapat, BASM: (646) 298-5825 and see if she knows anyone in your area.

I just came across this interesting abstract regarding vitamin C and glaucoma surgery. (I have edited out some of the details.)

Abstract Title: Concentration of Ascorbic Acid in Aqueous Humor of Glaucoma Patients
Author Block: M.T. Leite1, T.S. Prata1, L.A. S. Melo, Jr.1, D.V. Miranda2, D.P. Rivelli2, S.B. M. Barros2.

Ophthalmology, Universidade Federal de São Paulo, Sao Paulo, Brazil; 2Universidade de São Paulo, Sao Paulo, Brazil.

Abstract Body: Purpose: To compare the concentration of ascorbic acid in the aqueous humor of glaucoma patients with senile cataract subjects.

Results: A total of 18 patients with senile cataract, 16 glaucoma patients with primary aqueous humor (no previous intraocular surgery), and 11 glaucoma patients with secondary aqueous humor (previous intraocular surgery) were included in this study.

Conclusions: Glaucoma patients with secondary aqueous humor have about two-fold lower concentration of ascorbic acid in the aqueous humor in comparison to glaucoma patients with primary aqueous humor and cataract patients. This fact suggests a reduction in the antioxidant capacity of secondary aqueous humor in glaucoma patients.

 
In general, a reduction in antioxidant capacity is very undesirable in glaucoma patients. My blog post about inflammation and oxidative stress in glaucoma pathogenesis gives some background on that subject and I plan to write more on it in the future. The specific issue of tissue healing in trabeculectomy in response to vitamin C is outside of my area of expertise. However, elevated IOP mediates its damage on the retinal ganglion cells via the immune system (activated micoglia cells cause loss of oligodendrocytes which leads to programmed death of retinal ganglion cells). Given what we know about vitamin C and the immune system, we can make some guesses about how vitamin C might play a role in glaucoma pathogenesis.

In short, loss of vision in glaucoma is at least partly mediated by an excessive inflammatory immune response where the immune cells that are supposed to protect the retinal ganglion cells actually damage these critical vision cells. Vitamin C and other antioxidants have been shown, in general, to actually decrease the inflammatory damage often done by overzealous immune cells (while actually boosting the overall effectiveness of the immune system). Theoretically, a reduction in antioxidant capacity of the eye in a glaucoma patient might correlate with long term worsening of vision. While this has not been conclusively demonstrated yet, I prefer to extrapolate what we know about vitamin C and the immune system in general and apply that understanding to what we know about the immune system's role in glaucoma. If my speculations are correct, we'll eventually find a correlation between dietary vitamin C intake and retinal ganglion cell survival in glaucoma patients.

-----Original Message-----
From: glaucoma at yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of linjanpakker
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: [glaucoma] Vitamin C & trabeculectomy

My trabeculectomy was performed October 2005 and doc advised against taking
Vitamin C. He believes it can create healing of the tissue that is not
desirable. Has anyone else gotten this advice--and does anyone take doses
larger than 250 mg.?

Caveat: some of the following information may be out of context. 

Breakthrough studies have recently rejected the long-standing belief that neuronal tissue is incapable of regeneration. Recently indeed, adult neural stem cells have been isolated from the hippocampus and the subventricular zone of the adult mammalian brain. Stem cells are defined as cells having the ability to self-renew, and to differentiate into multiple phenotypic lineages.

Retinal precursor cells (a type of stem cell) give rise to both the neural retina and the retinal pigment epithelium. The neural retina itself contains five major types of neurons and one type of glial cells. Retinal precursors are multipotent, they can give rise to all these cell types.

New retinal cells are continuously generated , through the activity of stem cells located in a region known as the ciliary marginal zone. Recently, it has been discovered that adult avian and mammalian retinas, including human ones, also contain neural stem cells, although quiescent in vivo.

Vitreous fluid may support the proliferation of retinal precursor cells. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) likely contributes to this effect. (Researchers have shown ascorbate to be pro-proliferative for retinal precursor cells.)