optic nerve death

When a part or even the entire optic nerve is dead, I know it does not promote vision. Does theis death grow like when a limb had gangrene? Is the Nerve 'dead' so it should be rejected by the body? I think it must mean something different from most tissue dead for optic nerves to be determined dead. Does anyone know or have a good hypothesis?

andrea:

When a part or even the entire optic nerve is dead, I know it does not promote vision. Does theis death grow like when a limb had gangrene? Is the Nerve 'dead' so it should be rejected by the body? I think it must mean something different from most tissue dead for optic nerves to be determined dead. Does anyone know or have a good hypothesis?

did you see this post about the optic nerve cells?  You are correct that a dead or damaged optic nerve cell is "rejected" by the body in this sense - immune system cells come and clean it up (engulf it). You are also correct that the damage can spread. When one optic nerve cell dies, it can cause its neighbors to die and in this way the damage spreads.

It sounds to me like you would find PubMed to be a helpful resource. Would you like to join the self-tonometry research program? To do that you need your doctor's approve to purchase a tonometer. I can help you get a discount on most tonomters. (The professional quality tonometers used in this research program cost at least several thousand dollars in the USA.) If you join the research program, there are some additional resources available that may interest you if you want to go deep into understanding the biochemistry and pathophysiology of glaucoma.

I would love to understand more about the biochemistry and pathophysiology of glaucoma. I try to read a lot about glaucoma and all the aspects of incolvement. I use PUbMed. My doctor would love it if I used a self tonometer process, I asked. The problem is an acute lack of financial resources. I have read the inexpensive ones arent really useful,except for comparison against prior readings. This would not be likely what your project does. I saw a post about optic nerve cells dying. I was reading about inflammation and how it promotes all sorts fo awful things. It made me wonder where the dead cells went. The neuro optho I saw said the dead part of the nerve was jagged so I thought cells must expunge themselves someway. It also made me wonder about remaining living cells within the dead nerve. Why would part of the huge nerve, not that the really are huge , die and still remain even relatively intact. It should either be shriveling or spreading. The spread at a cell by cell level would make sense but to have a part of the nerve die and not effect the rest seems odd.Inflamation makes sense to rid the nerve of dead optic cell. This could even be an aspect of the neuro ganglions stopping thie functioning but not dying. If inflamation stopped or lessened, these cells could resume funcioning and voila! maybe a few cells worth of vision. You just have a great site. I love to study this but it is great others do as well. Even the consciousness/mindfulness is great. Part of cognitive behavioral therapy which I used to train staff on, was mindfulness. People would get lost in their own thoughts to the extent they could change their reality in the world which could effect behavior. Mood of course would be but mindfulness was key to folks bing able to change thought processes. To be aware is then ability to change.

Yes, mindfulness is a very, very useful technique to master. There are many levels of mindfulness and I think any glaucoma patient would benefit by going deeply into the mastery of mindfulness. I use Serene Impulse myself.

To me, it seems like a really big issue in glaucoma is that the immune system cells, which are responsible for cleaning up (removing) the dead or damaged optic nerve cells, make the mistake of going after and killing healthy nerve cells or supporting cells. This is a loss of intelligence at the level of immune system cells.I hope my readers are alert to what I am saying -- we are losing healthy optic nerve cells because of mistakes made by our immune system cells!

And this relates to the discussion we had about my blog post The Mistake Of The Intellect. Our immune system cells are suffering from this mistake -- this temporary ignorance -- that arises when our ego takes over our mental functioning.

There are various mental techniques that will help restore intelligence to the immune system cells. For example, the Serene Impulse technique I do and HeartMath both work on a similar principle to create heart rhythm coherence. A few minutes of this mental "exercise" has been shown to boost immune system functioning for many hours (even for as much as 24 hours if I recall correctly). Mindfulness, when done correctly so that one experiences inner peace and bliss with a quieting of the normal "voice in the head" (which is the ego) should also help restore intelligence to the immune system. (Caveat: if your mindfulness practice isn't pleasurable, you are probably not doing something correctly -- and you probably aren't getting the intended benefits. Contact me for more info.)

Restoring intelligent functioning to the immune system so that the immune cells do not do any damage to healthy optic nerve cells or the supporting cells (such glial cells) is of prime importance in protecting against future optic nerve damage in glaucoma. We have a massive amount of scientific data showing that mental techniques (such as those I mentioned above) can help restore intelligent functioning to the immune system.

BTW, you are correct that a good tonometer is required for the research we do. There isn't really any alternative on the market that costs less than a few thousand dollars.

Where I used to work, there was a client who has a dissociative disorder. This develops in very young children, before age 2 and who are severely abused. As they cannot endure what they are living they dissociate aspects of themselves to deal withvarious pain. Dissociation is explained in a simple way as wheile drivinf, one cannot recall all the events during the drive. This also has lead to folks being fragmented in their personalities and used to be considered multiple personalities. Anyway one person had a client who in onaltered state of consciousness, or part, tested positive for HIV. When the same person was in another altered state of being, she did not. There was something about the extreme dissociation of aspectsof her reality that effect her to thelevel of testing positive for a illness in one state and not in another. This I believe would help show the influence of the mind on the body. As a small child, she began developing these different aspects of the same personality. They were separate islolated aspects of the entire person. Yest she could scientifically be shown to have two different responses to a clear cut test, as for HIV.

andrea:

Anyway one person had a client who in one altered state of consciousness, or part, tested positive for HIV. When the same person was in another altered state of being, she did not.

andrea - this is a very interesting yet controversial subject. I would like to learn more about it. I have been researching this a bit on the Internet for several weeks. The best link I have found so far is this one:

http://local.google.com/answers/threadview?id=507735

The researcher who posted the information at the link above summarizes the research as follows:

"It is worth noting that the reference sources cited in the material posted above, such as the books "Remarkable Recovery" and "Holographic Universe," are not scientific treatises. They are more closely related to metaphysics or parapsychology, and rely upon a good deal of anecdotal data. In several hours of searching, I found very little hard evidence from scientifically reputable sources. Studies of differing brain activity and cerebral blood-flow patterns in patients diagnosed with MPD have been demonstrated to exist."

I did some research on PubMed and I found the same thing. You would think something as significant as postive/not-positive for HIV would be written up as a case report and published. The fact that we can't find any reliable reports for any of the diseases that are supposed to switch on and switch off as personalities change makes me cautious. However, I remain open minded and I would appreciate any information anyone has on this subject.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136309

To visit Wake Forest University's institute for Regenerative Medicine is to enter a surreal world where scientists create living organs—hearts, bladders and even kidneys—that function like the real thing. Skin, bone, cartilage, blood vessels, nerves: nothing seems too ambitious for director Anthony Atala and his staff of 150 to craft. 

 

I think most clinician focus on ways to improve therapy rather than to publish. In the psychology area, particularly clinical, I think the most research is done with people who have Schizophrenia. This illness is devastating to individuals and often results in great expense to the public due to major disability. Most clinician would be unlikely to write up one case. They struggle to do the billing even.

It seems from what I have read that not only is good blood flow required for a healthy optic nerve, but the blood must be well oxygenated. I wonder if anyone measures this as part of managing glaucoma or IOP's. It would be fairly easy and would also correlated with optic nerve health. I havent seen ant reasearch on this topic,has anyone?

andrea:

It seems from what I have read that not only is good blood flow required for a healthy optic nerve, but the blood must be well oxygenated. I wonder if anyone measures this as part of managing glaucoma or IOP's. It would be fairly easy and would also correlated with optic nerve health. I havent seen ant reasearch on this topic,has anyone?

When you say "it would be fairly easy" are you referring to oximetry? Finger oximetry is fairly easy, but I'm not sure how much that correlates with blood oxygenation in the eyes. Do you have any research on this? How much do you know about oximetry? I would welcome a discussion on this topic.

When it comes to blood flow in the eyes, that is not easy to quantify. Most of the equipment is very expensive and not very reliable. The best compromise I know of is the Pascal Dynamic Contour tonometer, which I use.

You know i've come into some ideas about optic nerve death for myself that are related to this discussion. It seems to be happening in my right eye much more prevalently. But heres the story, i went for a sleep study and i have sleep apnea (including low blood oxygen concentrations). as well when i awoke my blood pressure was low around 80/58. i didnt measure my eye pressures but im sure they were elevated, they run around 17-18 normally (with meds) during the day. so i am getting nerve damage and it is most likely happening at night due to low blood pressure, higher eye pressure and sleep apnea. So my response to allay this is to get a dental device for the sleep apnea (& lose weight, cpap's apparently raise eye pressure), i got a better higher pillow, and am taking my gingko, eleuthro (for bp), ashwaganda (for bp) and antiox supplements right before bedtime instead of the morning & afternoon. The last thing is that since i am getting more damage to 1 eye i decided it is either because i sleep on 1 side more than the other (Dr. ritch has mentioned this with NTG before) or i have some occlusion somewhere. So i went and had an atlas adjustment. this has reduced my tinnitus in my right ear and that is consistent with increasing circulation to that side ot the head. I must have had an occlusion in my neck preventing adequate bloodflow to the right side of my brain. anyways these are some of my thoughts...
 

tsingle999 - thanks for sharing your excellent comment! It sounds like you are taking some very important steps. I look forward to hear more about your results in the future. Your situation sounds similar to mine. My IOP is now very well controlled during the day, so my focus has shifted to what happens while I sleep. My IOP is at least 6-7 mmHg higher when I lie down. And it is also higher in the early morning hours. In fact, my IOP can be as much as 20 mmHg higher at the peak time during sleep compared to the low point while I am awake. In addition my blood pressure goes down at night like yours.

Did you see this post? http://fiteyes.com/blogs/dave/2007/01/30/managing-blood-pressure-and-eye-pressure-while-sleeping

I am now finally seeing some positive results from using my program of "inner fitness" and Serene Impulse to reduce my IOP while sleeping. I plan to blog about this soon.

This is a good plan. I wonder if you had any difficulties getting a sleep study. My doctor asks me if I snore and I dont. Then he says I dont need it. I have been studying the oxygenation of blood. Cells lose oxygen from affinity, where there is some illness type reason the oxygen does not attach, then bu mechanical means. I wonder about the programming of CNS nerve cells and how they are programmed for oxygen reception as well as how to handle deprivation. So far all I can find in theis are is cancer cells have no response to deprivation of oxygen. Since our limbs lose oxygen to save it for our brains, I wonder if thereis any cell programming that prioitizes what cells die first.

Short periods of hypoxia and ischemia, after repeatedly occurring, can result in adaptation of normal cells and tissues to a decreased partial pressure of oxygen, and they become more resistant to anaerobiosis(they die easier). Deoxygenating can happen when one has decreased red blood cells or hemoglobin that takes oxygen to tissues (including nerves). Many things can affect the bloods ability to develop hemoglobin- anemia, losing blood, diseases etc. Some conditions lead to the blood being unable to pick up as much oxygen as it was once able to. This also would seem to lessen the amount of oxygen to the optic nerve. Even brief episodes can cause damage to those pesky nerve ganglions and help them decide to stop living. So far, from what I can determine, there does seem to be some resilience to the absence of adequate oxygen to most bodily tissues. Mechanically, blood can be restricted from a tissue and then oxygenation would not be possible, but it seems the optic nerve has too many sources for this to happen in the usual course of events.I believe cells such as CNS cells also have innate intelligence that in some programming manner, allows them increased access to resources for survival. They know when to kill themselves so doesnt it make sense they would have some sort of self preservation?(I couldnt find resources yet for this.) When thinking of inner health, it also must include not only good blood pressures, good IOP, but a good supply of well loaded hemoglobin in the blood. Since oximeters measure the amount of blood at the extremeties, this would be a way to determine gross abnormalities. When I have asthma attacks the ER admits me if I dip below 85 at all. I do go under 90% which could be one of times when the hemoglobin is unable to furnish plenty of oxygen. Maybe better management of my asthma would help. The trouble is the meds make my arrythmia go worse. It is such a balancing act to get all the meds and all the body systems in sync. I think the matter of maintaining a state of quiet stasis as in mild self hypnosis or long meditation might be a way to quiet all in the body enough to achieve balance.

andrea  - have you considered yoga and pranayama for asthma? In my own experience, specific pranayama techniques that are part of Serene Impulse (my inner fitness practice) can be very beneficial for IOP. I would caution however, that pranayama can both raise or lower IOP depending on the specific methods used.

Several studies have shown yoga to be a very helpful in reducing the frequency and intensity of asthma attacks (as well as helping decrease medication use). Consistent practice of yoga asanas (postures) and pranayama (breathing) increases the lung’s airflow, air capacity, stamina and efficiency. Back bending postures open the chest improving both lung and heart functioning. Practice upper back bends and chest opening postures if it is harder to exhale during asthma attacks. Practice forward bends and lower back bending poses if it is more difficult to inhale. Inverted postures drain excess mucus from the lungs and balance the immune system, but they should probably be avoided by anyone who has ocular hypertension. A general yoga practice reduces stress, physical tension, and muscle tightness and increases overall feelings of well being by activating the parasympathetic nervous system.

Pranayama cultivates the ability to maintain a relaxed and controlled breath that can prevent or reduce asthma attacks.Here are some recommendations I've seen. (I haven't tried these myself and I have no experience with asthma):

• Dirga pranayama is for all conditions and will encourage slow deep breathing patterns.
  
• For stress and emotional upsets use Nadi Sodhana.
• For asthma triggered by cold air practice Ujjayi pranayama.
• For allergic asthma use Sit Cari or Shitali pranayamas.
  
• To help strengthen the lungs and reduce mucus congestion use Kapalabhati pranayama, practicing it very slowly and gently in short durations.

Here are some other recommendations from http://www.drgranny.com/yoga/?p=71